The Real Jesus

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Holy Bible	The Real Jesus	Lead	[-]
Posts: 1 (07/01/09 11:47:53) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tags : None Jesus is the Creator of the world. Without him was not anything created. Jesus is the Saviour of the world. Without him, there is no salvation. Jesus is the Word of God manifest in the flesh. Without Jesus coming down to die on the cross, we would still be in our sins. Jesus is both God and man. Without Jesus, no perfect sacrifice would be available. As a man he hungered etc. As God, he could claim many things. Only God is good, Yet a man called him good and Jesus said that that is akin to calling him God. He never told him not to. Omnipresence John 3:13 shows that Jesus was not just a man. He also received worship. Holy Bible There is only one.
bluesky22		#1	[-]
Posts: 94 (07/02/09 00:56:57) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Holy Bible wrote: Jesus is the Creator of the world. Without him was not anything created. Jesus is the Saviour of the world. Without him, there is no salvation. Jesus is the Word of God manifest in the flesh. Without Jesus coming down to die on the cross, we would still be in our sins. Jesus is both God and man. Without Jesus, no perfect sacrifice would be available. As a man he hungered etc. As God, he could claim many things. Only God is good, Yet a man called him good and Jesus said that that is akin to calling him God. He never told him not to. Omnipresence John 3:13 shows that Jesus was not just a man. He also received worship. Holy Bible There is only one. Rubbish trinity doctrine born in the RCC and like minded. Jesus is not and was not the creator. How can Jesus inherit from the Father all things if He is the original owner and maker of them. God the Father, one person , created all things that were made, having not only Jesus in mind but also all those who will be joined with Him in eternity. This intention and means was signified by his speaking to mankind in His Word. Jesus was and is a man who the Bible says has a God. Know your Bible and not the lying trinity doctrine formulated by dead men who never knew God. The righteous life of a man, the son of God through Mary,, without sin was the perfect sacrifice, and He did not need to be God to do so. If Jesus was not a second Adam fashioned according to the Word of God by his Father speaking to Him and leading Him to overcome then the atonement was not affected and your trinity doctrine preaches no atonement of any mans sins, so it is no wonder to me that those who preach it are not testifiers of their having been filled with the Holy Spirit from Heaven and the manifestation of its fruits and gifts. Blue.
55Glen		#2	[-]
Posts: 75 (07/02/09 16:19:45) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	1Cor 10:3-And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4-And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. Joel 2:14-Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God? John 3:31-He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. 1Cor 15:47-The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. Acts 20:28-Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his blood. The kinsmen redeemer role required a perfect man to come and purchase that which could not redeem it self! so the Lord from heaven Philip 2:6-Who, being in the form of God thought it not robbery to be equal with God; 7-But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8_And being found in the fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. I can understand why you think the way you do, but were dealing with God and He can do things we can't understand! In Colossians we are told he was the creator of all things, earthly and heavenly, Hebrews tells us the same thing, 1:2- God the Son was the instrument that made the worlds. John 17:5-And now, O father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I HAD! with thee before the world was. The fact that God kept the death, burial, and resurrection hid till after the fact! shows a pattern of Gods time table for revealations, few are inlightened to what God is doing and even those are kept in the dark as to the reason, that will only be revealed to them after it manifests. Glen.
Eugene210		#3	[-]
Posts: 471 (07/03/09 07:28:33) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Rubbish trinity doctrine born in the RCC and like minded. Jesus is not and was not the creator. How can Jesus inherit from the Father all things if He is the original owner and maker of them. God the Father, one person , created all things that were made, having not only Jesus in mind but also all those who will be joined with Him in eternity. This intention and means was signified by his speaking to mankind in His Word. Jesus was and is a man who the Bible says has a God. Know your Bible and not the lying trinity doctrine formulated by dead men who never knew God. I guess I've been away from these forums so long that I've missed things. In all the years I've read your posts and debates, you've never stated your belief about Jesus so clearly, Colin. Not that I remember, anyway. I don't debate these things anymore or attach overly much importance to them, but I am surprised. I think I remember you objected to Trinitarian theology, but I didn't remember that you objected to the deity of Christ. Yes, the Trinity was formulated by men. It is unscriptural in some respects, I think, but hardly so erroneous as to say that the "dead men" who constructed it "never knew God." Regardless, the deity of Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ, is written in the Bible as plainly as his humanity. Jesus Christ is God who made Himself to be a man. No I don't want to debate it, and I still enjoy reading your posts and appreciate your humor. But I still feel the urge to make the statement above whenever I read something contrary.
alwayseekin	Howdy Guys	#4	[-]
Posts: 2364 (07/03/09 08:05:53) Knight in shining armor Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	... well you know me, I'm going to pick at this a bit ;-) I did not read where Colin denied the deity of Jesus [yet] ... only that He was not the Creator. Of course we all must confess He is/was a man who came in the flesh ... So I guess I have to ask Colin to clarify his thoughts on Eugene's quote here; I remember you objected to Trinitarian theology, but I didn't remember that you objected to the deity of Christ. ... if for no other reason that we will then all know definitively what your underlying views are on these matters And Eugene, could you point out a few of the places that you believe support this statement; Regardless, the deity of Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ, is written in the Bible as plainly as his humanity. Jesus Christ is God who made Himself to be a man. I will certainly respect your wishes to not be drawn into debate or heated discussion over these points, but it would be nice to know just what scriptures you have in mind. These very points may also help us in our overall discussions with Zack too, because he objects to Christianity on these very grounds [my paraphrase Zack, please feel free to correct me or to clarify for specifics] As we can see from this small thread, there is not perfect agreement, even among followers of Christ. Thanks & Blessings, Michael ps --- Colin, I might as well add this here as it may save us a step or two ;-) ... I do believe you are going to support Eugene's reading of your views and prove his observations to be correct. However, since I did not see a specific mention of Christ's deity in your post I thought it correct to ask about it directly. Once you do deny His deity, or reject that He is God in some form or fashion [assuming you do] will you be willing to explain to us HOW this all fits in with the scriptures concerning it? It would be very helpful to have someone walk us through these things over a period of time, so that we can truly get some grasp of how a Christian [if you don't mind being called by that name] can believe in the completed work of Christ for mankind and yet not believe it took a perfect being to do it. I think Holy Bible put it like this in the OP ... Jesus is the Saviour of the world. Without him, there is no salvation. Jesus is the Word of God manifest in the flesh. Without Jesus coming down to die on the cross, we would still be in our sins. Jesus is both God and man. Thanks Again
Eugene210		#5	[-]
Posts: 472 (07/03/09 08:44:22) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I did not read where Colin denied the deity of Jesus [yet] ... only that He was not the Creator. What is the difference? In a monotheistic religion, "deity" and "creator" are synonymous.
Eugene210		#6	[-]
Posts: 473 (07/03/09 09:15:14) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I will certainly respect your wishes to not be drawn into debate or heated discussion over these points, but it would be nice to know just what scriptures you have in mind. Thanks. My experience with godhead debates is that they tend to devolve into inquisitions. I've served both as inquisitor and heretic in the past, so I avoid them now. My view is not strictly orthodox, but I strongly believe that Jesus Christ is God who became a man. If I didn't believe that, I wouldn't be religious at all. It is that important to my faith. The most instructive passage to me is Philippians 2:5-8. Let the same mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited, but emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness. And being found in human form, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death -- even death on a cross. NRSV The passage teaches clearly that: 1) "Christ Jesus" (not just "the Christ", but "Christ Jesus" -- a Person) was God before He was born in Bethlehem; 2) Christ Jesus "emptied" Himself to become a human being, which we can't understand except to say that God became a man; 3) Christ Jesus died, which He couldn't have done unless He were a genuine human being. Let me observe that I don't believe in "eternal Sonship" or "three personalities" in the Godhead. I don't understand how God can be simultaneously omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, invisible Father and visible human Son, but that's what I believe the New Testament teaches.
alwayseekin	Hi Eugene	#7	[-]
Posts: 2365 (07/03/09 09:27:07) Knight in shining armor Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	In a monotheistic religion, "deity" and "creator" are synonymous. I did not know this ... The way I am reading your comment it says ANY deity MUST be creator... Whereas I did make a separation between the two in my mind. Meaning, I thought one could be declared/considered/seen as God and yet NOT be the Creator Himself. I see your point though, and it is obvious that I haven't given this enough thought (or been involved with a community that could behave themselves enough to work through it with respect ;-) I hope we can do that here ... Here is a followup question ... can someone be called/considered a god WITHOUT being deity? The bible is confusing on this matter Blessings, Michael
alwayseekin	Hi Eugene	#8	[-]
Posts: 2367 (07/03/09 10:41:05) Knight in shining armor Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Lets see if we can pick this apart a bit more ... Let the same mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited, but emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness. And being found in human form, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death -- even death on a cross. NRSV You said; The passage teaches clearly that: 1) "Christ Jesus" (not just "the Christ", but "Christ Jesus" -- a Person) was God before He was born in Bethlehem; ... but I ask where? I see where the passage says that He was "in the form of God" and it says that He "did not regard equality with God etc" ... but nowhere do I see where it says He "was" God I know, you'll ask "well just what does EQUALITY and FORM of God mean if it doesn't mean He was God?" Good question ;-) You said; 2) Christ Jesus "emptied" Himself to become a human being, which we can't understand except to say that God became a man; Agreed ... It is hard to understand any other way, and I will be interested to see how others get around it And lastly you said; 3) Christ Jesus died, which He couldn't have done unless He were a genuine human being. Absolutely agreed ... in this the scriptures are clear and to the point. ... but back to point # one ... what do you make of Jesus' own words and prayer in John 17 Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, ² as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should^[a] give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. ³ And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. (I would point out that God also sent John the Baptist, not that He gave him the same authority etc...) snip ²⁰ "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will^[e] believe in Me through their word; ²¹ that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. ²² And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: ²³I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me How does this "one-ness" differ for us in God from the way you perceive Jesus is one [equal, in the form of ...etc] with God? How does the Glory that Jesus has [and had before the world was] differ for us when He gives us this SAME Glory? And to the point [which is the basis of my continue confusion] How do these attributes make Jesus divine when they clearly do NOT make us divine? We clearly were not the creator of the world, yet Jesus prays that we be one with Him and the Father. How can we be one with God [equal, in the form of or mind of ...] and yet not be considered deity? How can we be His children, proceed from Him, be sent from Him, born of Him and not have the basic qualities [nature, divinity, etc ...] of Him? To further complicate things [or to just get it out there while we're on the subject] ... I do not believe God has to be in time, or that He "waits" to know anything. Therefore we existed with God before creation too, because God does not wait to see things over a period of time. He is present and everything is present to Him all the time [or in no time, outside of time]. So, if Jesus has glory, which He does, then He has it with God before He came into the world. And so do we! [if we have glory that is ...] Couldn't we say the very same words Jesus said [if we knew them to be true of course] "I am returning to my Father, and to the glory I had before the foundation of the world ..." ?? I know I'm all over the place here but I thought I'd throw out a bunch of stuff and see what particular thing sticks Blessings, Michael
bluesky22		#9	[-]
Posts: 95 (07/03/09 20:28:34) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Hi all, I have used up my daily time but I will get to give the scriptures from which I have drawn my beliefs. Provided that when I do that sensible responses are made and everyone does not disappear as per usual. Colin.
bluesky22	Response to Glen.	#10	[-]
Posts: 96 (07/04/09 01:55:40) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	1Cor 10:3-And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4-And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. Obviously the rock itself was not Christ, but the Spirit was, and it was the same spirit which dwelt in Jesus and dwells with/ and in the Christian thus giving us a picture of what it is to be led by Christ or the spirit of God if you prefer, through the man Jesus who has and does continue to intercede with God on our behalf who are the Fathers children through Him. Jesus being the first and only one to walk the walk of faith without sinning and He became the author and finisher of our faith and our High Priest. Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; John 3:31-He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. Jesus came from Adam through Mary so the comparison is between the spirit of one with the other and not of the flesh else you have to kill yourself physically.-- Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: 1Cor 15:47-The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. One must look at the contexts-- 1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Acts 20:28-Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his blood. Your own son is also your own blood. God Himself has no mans blood at anytime except as He begat a Son of the human race through Mary. The kinsmen redeemer role required a perfect man to come and purchase that which could not redeem it self! so the Lord from heaven Philip 2:6-Who, being in the form of God thought it not robbery to be equal with God; 7-But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8_And being found in the fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. It was while Jesus the man lived that He was in the form of God that He humbled Himself, and His equalty with God was predicated on His being Gods own son, even the Pharisees knew that. -- Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. Jesus said that His Father was greater than Himself, and if God had a son from a trinatarian type God then Jesus was his own Father. I can understand why you think the way you do, but were dealing with God and He can do things we can't understand! In Colossians we are told he was the creator of all things, earthly and heavenly, Hebrews tells us the same thing, 1:2- God the Son was the instrument that made the worlds. No. The Father of Jesus who is God, made the creation and has raised/made a son of man to rule over Gods creation as their King and inheriter thereof until such time as God will be all in all, when the son also will be subject to His Father like everyone else. 1 Cor.ch 15. John 17:5-And now, O father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I HAD! with thee before the world was. You have to say that properly. Jesus was promised that He Jesus would be gloified with God, even before the world was created because it was by and through that intention that the creation was begun, just as it was that Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world. The fact that God kept the death, burial, and resurrection hid till after the fact! shows a pattern of Gods time table for revealations, few are inlightened to what God is doing and even those are kept in the dark as to the reason, that will only be revealed to them after it manifests. Well God did not hide the death burial and resurrection from man, but men hid from hearing God, for the gospel was preached by God to Abraham and other men of faith throughout history. Galations. It is just that mens eyes open slowly and God has patience with them.-- Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. Colin.
bluesky22	To Eugene.	#11	[-]
Posts: 97 (07/04/09 02:09:03) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I guess I've been away from these forums so long that I've missed things. In all the years I've read your posts and debates, you've never stated your belief about Jesus so clearly, Colin. Not that I remember, anyway. I don't debate these things anymore or attach overly much importance to them, but I am surprised. I think I remember you objected to Trinitarian theology, but I didn't remember that you objected to the deity of Christ. Yes, the Trinity was formulated by men. It is unscriptural in some respects, I think, but hardly so erroneous as to say that the "dead men" who constructed it "never knew God." Philip did not know God either when he said-- Joh 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. The knowing here is not that of the senses of physical eyes and knowledge of him. Regardless, the deity of Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ, is written in the Bible as plainly as his humanity. Jesus Christ is God who made Himself to be a man. The scriptures do not say that Jesus created Himself or anything, and it is not possible that God could become a man, but only that God made a man in His image starting with conception in Mary and in continuing Fathering by his Word. No I don't want to debate it, and I still enjoy reading your posts and appreciate your humor. But I still feel the urge to make the statement above whenever I read something contrary. Fine. Colin.
bluesky22	Michael.	#12	[-]
Posts: 98 (07/04/09 02:58:52) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	... well you know me, I'm going to pick at this a bit ;-) I did not read where Colin denied the deity of Jesus [yet] ... only that He was not the Creator. Of course we all must confess He is/was a man who came in the flesh ... So I guess I have to ask Colin to clarify his thoughts on Eugene's quote here; I remember you objected to Trinitarian theology, but I didn't remember that you objected to the deity of Christ. ... if for no other reason that we will then all know definitively what your underlying views are on these matters My rejection of the idea that Jesus is the creator is based on scriptures like-- Heb 1:1 God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; and - Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: Heb 1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; Heb 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? Heb 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. Heb 2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honor, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behooved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succor them that are tempted. ps --- Colin, I might as well add this here as it may save us a step or two ;-) ... I do believe you are going to support Eugene's reading of your views and prove his observations to be correct. However, since I did not see a specific mention of Christ's deity in your post I thought it correct to ask about it directly. Once you do deny His deity, or reject that He is God in some form or fashion [assuming you do] will you be willing to explain to us HOW this all fits in with the scriptures concerning it? It would be very helpful to have someone walk us through these things over a period of time, so that we can truly get some grasp of how a Christian [if you don't mind being called by that name] can believe in the completed work of Christ for mankind and yet not believe it took a perfect being to do it. I think Holy Bible put it like this in the OP ... Jesus is the Saviour of the world. Without him, there is no salvation. Jesus is the Word of God manifest in the flesh. Without Jesus coming down to die on the cross, we would still be in our sins. Jesus is both God and man. Thanks Again The creation came into existence in order that God would make man in His image eternally , of which Jesus was the beginning of (the beginning of the creation of God) This required that man in His own choice but with Gods help should be united with the Creator who is God, and the testimony of Jesus whole existence from His beginning was of how God could be united with the man Jesus according to the laws of this creation which mirror the eternal things of Gods laws, in order that others of mankind may be the same through the first one. In other words, God could not cheat and come down from Heaven to right His creation when He had already given the command and authority to man to replenish (or complete) the earth, but He could be instrumental in His creation through a man who was of His own likeness, who the Father creator would bring into existence and train up by His own fathering ability. If God was IN Christ reconciling the world unto Himself as His word says, then it becomes clear that it was the light which lights every man who comes into the world who was in the world through His dwelling in his Son Jesus from His baptism onward that the world did not know Him who had made them.(John ch 1.) It was only after God had come to dwell in Jesus by his Holy spirit from Heaven that we beheld the Glory of the only begotten son of God. Previously, not even his brothers knew who He was, so it was not surprising that not many others did either until John revealed Him from which time Jesus was sent into the world, and not before. so that we can truly get some grasp of how a Christian [if you don't mind being called by that name] can believe in the completed work of Christ for mankind and yet not believe it took a perfect being to do it Of course Jesus was a perfect being in that He did not sin against His God, that is He did not rebel, yet was of human weakness like all men. Jesus perfection was something that had to be arrived at in time. That does not mean that He was a sinner until He was perfected, in fact if men sin then perfection is held up until they stop sinning, though it be a part of it, but Jesus did not sin, that is He did not break Gods law or go against anything that God said to Him but He certainly would have felt like it sometimes, but remember that other men have inflamed passions of the flesh which Jesus did not have because He was kept from that by his Father, but flesh is still flesh and His came from Adam like all other mens flesh does. The benefit of the Holy parenthood of Mary and Joseph can not be discounted either, which is certainly much better than for most of mankind who Jesus saves. Heb 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Colin
alwayseekin	Colin ... I will not leave you or ...	#13	[-]
Posts: 2368 (07/04/09 10:51:39) Knight in shining armor Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	... disappear (thought I was going to say "forsake you" huh? ;-) My problem is this ... I do not have any particular view to defend, so, while I can/will/do ask questions along the way, I cannot discuss/debate the issues with you. This will take someone like Jim etc to carry on ... I picked Jim out because he is currently talking about The Word pre-existing the creation, and that Word becoming Christ Jesus [my paraphrase which may highlight my mis-understanding of Jim] I would like to clear up one thing right away though ... my post you are responding to highlights the fact to Eugene that you did not specifically deny "deity" for Jesus, only denying that He was the Creator. In your response you did not specifically address Jesus' deity, or if you did it was not direct enough for me to grasp it ;-) So let me ask two things specifically ... Does Jesus have any attributes/nature/ etc of deity & if so does He get this from having been the Word of God before His physical birth through Mary? Or as others have said elsewhere, Jesus may acquire(?) His deity through the Holy Spirit at the incarnation ... I assume this means He did not pre-exist as the Word but I don't really know Even in the above questions "I" can see how the Word may not have created the world, but it was God who created the world [the Creator] and He used the Word to do so ... ... it is at about this point that I get in over my head and can swim no further without other folks joining the discussion. I promise to stay engaged but I can't really drive us in any one direction or the other [I'm having a deja vu moment ... I swear I've written this exact thing before] Happy 4th of July folks, Michael ps -- I will try to make more comments to your post in another post, leaving this one to deal with or clarify the deity of Jesus.
55Glen		#14	[-]
Posts: 76 (07/04/09 15:19:34) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	bluesky22 wrote: 1Cor 10:3-And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4-And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. Obviously the rock itself was not Christ, but the Spirit was, and it was the same spirit which dwelt in Jesus and dwells with/ and in the Christian thus giving us a picture of what it is to be led by Christ or the spirit of God if you prefer, through the man Jesus who has and does continue to intercede with God on our behalf who are the Fathers children through Him. Jesus being the first and only one to walk the walk of faith without sinning and He became the author and finisher of our faith and our High Priest. Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; John 3:31-He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. Jesus came from Adam through Mary so the comparison is between the spirit of one with the other and not of the flesh else you have to kill yourself physically.-- Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: 1Cor 15:47-The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. One must look at the contexts-- 1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Acts 20:28-Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his blood. Your own son is also your own blood. God Himself has no mans blood at anytime except as He begat a Son of the human race through Mary. The kinsmen redeemer role required a perfect man to come and purchase that which could not redeem it self! so the Lord from heaven Philip 2:6-Who, being in the form of God thought it not robbery to be equal with God; 7-But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8_And being found in the fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. It was while Jesus the man lived that He was in the form of God that He humbled Himself, and His equalty with God was predicated on His being Gods own son, even the Pharisees knew that. -- Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. Jesus said that His Father was greater than Himself, and if God had a son from a trinatarian type God then Jesus was his own Father. I can understand why you think the way you do, but were dealing with God and He can do things we can't understand! In Colossians we are told he was the creator of all things, earthly and heavenly, Hebrews tells us the same thing, 1:2- God the Son was the instrument that made the worlds. No. The Father of Jesus who is God, made the creation and has raised/made a son of man to rule over Gods creation as their King and inheriter thereof until such time as God will be all in all, when the son also will be subject to His Father like everyone else. 1 Cor.ch 15. John 17:5-And now, O father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I HAD! with thee before the world was. You have to say that properly. Jesus was promised that He Jesus would be gloified with God, even before the world was created because it was by and through that intention that the creation was begun, just as it was that Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world. The fact that God kept the death, burial, and resurrection hid till after the fact! shows a pattern of Gods time table for revealations, few are inlightened to what God is doing and even those are kept in the dark as to the reason, that will only be revealed to them after it manifests. Well God did not hide the death burial and resurrection from man, but men hid from hearing God, for the gospel was preached by God to Abraham and other men of faith throughout history. Galations. It is just that mens eyes open slowly and God has patience with them.-- Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. Colin. Well it looks like we have a different way of reading the meaning of words, so debating within those rules favors the subjective, that can present the argument that maybe it doesn't really mean what it clearly states. God bless, who ever that may be.
bluesky22	Diety.	#15	[-]
Posts: 99 (07/04/09 15:51:49) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Michael, I did not mention the word diety because I know of no scripture that mentions it. Eugene says it refers to Jesus being the creator (probably as the Word) . However in order that any man should have eternal life he must eat of the fruit of the tree of life, and we know that Jesus was GIVEN to have eternal life in Himself by his Father who is God the creator. Yet it was by men eating of the words that Jesus spoke that men ate of eternal life, and those words were those given Him from His Father, as Jesus had said, so the life that Jesus had came from His Father as did all things that He had so it is impossible that Jesus Himself was eternal in some way before He was born, except as the Word of promise which God had in His own heart before the Father created the ages. The lesser is blessed by the greater, and Jesus said that His Father was greater than Himself, and that everything that He had from Heaven was given to Him by His Father. Therefore Jesus became the God over all of the Fathers creation by inheritance through death. Jesus, in having all of the attributes of His Father that can be given to a man, is indeed like God the Father but the express image of , for "God is not a man" according to scripture. Jesus was filled with all of the fulness of God well AFTER His birth in time, and He has been granted to sit on His Fathers Throne to rule over all that God has made, and it was only possible by His being Gods own son through Mary and His being raised up by God by His eating of the fruit of eternal life to become the man that he became to do what had to be done. It is impossible to speak of anything outside of scripture and unnecessary to the understanding of the truth. Men invent new words to cover their theories of how they think things were/are. That is why I said that dead men invented the trinity doctrine, The fact that others follow them instead of scripture is their own folly because it is like eating dead food and you know what that does. I do not say that all trinitarians continue to do so because as time goes on they are realizing the difference IF they have tasted of the Lord's food and not forgotten. Colin. BTW . Debate is a worldly idea when men are allowed to lie in order to win an arguement or to prosecute or clear one in a court of law. It is indemic in the world of Babylon and is not the approved practice in the Kingdom of God.
Eugene210		#16	[-]
Posts: 474 (07/05/09 19:53:59) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	and it is not possible that God could become a man Why is it not possible that God could become a man ... or an angel ... or an ant? He is God, after all. He is not limited by your conception of His limits.
bluesky22		#17	[-]
Posts: 101 (07/06/09 17:50:09) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Eugene, God has made a man in his image, but God did not become a man. scripture states that God is not a man, and that He changes not. God is a Spirit, while man is flesh with a spirit given him from God. The spirit of God can not become a created being of flesh and bones with a spirit which is changeable in character. Jesus is the express image of the invisible God and filled with all of the fulness of God. Jesus is the word of God made flesh, that is Jesus is the man of whom God promised that He would bring into being through the human race to be the first of many of the eternalized creation of God. I do not care what man teachers. I never learnt from them in the first place that I had to change my views from satanic misrepresentations of scripture, though have been corrected on some points. I maintain that the trinitarians have never seen, spoke to, or know Christ as He is, and neither have been bought into the presence of His Father by Him either. It is not possible to change the doctrine of a person without the person first being changed by the Lord in order to understand it and by the Lord showing them. Colin.
Eugene210		#18	[-]
Posts: 475 (07/07/09 19:45:42) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I maintain that the trinitarians have never seen, spoke to, or know Christ as He is, and neither have been bought into the presence of His Father by Him either. I have learned a few useful things from arguing myself blue in the face on discussion forums over the past decade. One of the most important is: don't waste time arguing doctrine (or anything else) with an extremist. So now is the time I bow out of this thread.
Brother Roger	Numerical Identity vs. Ontological Identity	#19	[-]
Posts: 10003 (07/13/09 20:33:50) Board Owner The Boss A gentle man A gentleman Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I know that discussions of the Trinity and the Deity of Christ are like an electrified fence and for this reason it is very difficult to discuss the nuances of the subject without getting hurt. I appreciate those brave enough to try. Brother Roger Inter spem et metum.

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